Están or Son?

I'm wondering which word to use - "Están" o "Son" - in this sentence. "My grandparents are dead." "Mis abuelos están muertos." o "Mis abuelos son muertos." My translator is coming up with "están". "Dead" is usually a pretty permanent state and, to me, "son" seems to be more appropriate. ?? And, would I use "ya" in this sentence?

Hola Diane, Están is used and the explanation in D. Richmond's verb book is that this is a result of action: having lived. I don't think ya would be used unless you were saying something like" it's too late, he already died." Saludos, Rich

Also, I remember that this is addressed in "Breaking Out of Beginners of Beginner's Spanish" which I believe you have.

Hola Rich, Thanks so much for the info. I'm wondering if I need a hardcopy of that book. I have the Kindle version. I started reading it quite some time ago and never finished. I'm going to take another run at it. I know that there is a lot of helpful info in it, and I think I need to tackle it at this point in the game. Any text book style of book, I prefer getting a hardcopy of it so I can reference any where in it easier than trying to locate it on the Kindle. I'm sure others have gotten more adept with the Kindle, but I haven't. Do you find yourself reverencing back into the book often? Or, did you read it and don't go back to it often? Muchas gracias por su tiempo. ¡Tenga una Navidad maravillosa! diane

Hola Diane, I read it cover to cover and refer back to it regularly and frequently to reinforce or review things. I have a stack of books that I revisit all the time; I reach for the "The Big Red Book of Spanish Verbs" and the dictionary countless times each day. I've only seen a Kindle on TV but I am adept at turning pages(Smile).¡Que tengas una Feliz Navidad tambien! Saludos, Rich

Hola Rich, Thanks for all the recommendations. I ordered a used copy of "English Grammar for Students of Spanish" at the beginning of December and it never showed up. We have since moved from that mailing address and the selling graciously refunded me. I'm not sure if I'll reorder it as I decided to order the "The Big Red Book of Spanish Verbs". I tend to like to go off others recommendations and don't mind collecting a few books if they are going to be a continual go to source. I also came across and ordered the book "Spanish Conversation". Do you have that one? I thought it might be useful to practice simple conversation starters. I received it and it seems very simplistic and is almost like a breath of fresh air after dealing with some of the tougher parts of grammar. I think I'll like it just for the conversational examples in it. One book that I have been working thru is "Easy Spanish Step-By-Step". That's been a great starter book that touches on many parts of grammar. But, what I like most about it is each chapter has a lot of vocabulary. I decided to get the most out of that book by putting all of the words that I don't know from each chapter into a flashcard app and learn them before going onto the next chapter. I'm only half way thru the book and I've been working on it for almost a year now. It seems like such a slow process but I've increased my vocabulary immensely and I believe that to be an important part of learning a language. What have been your techniques for increasing you vocabulary?? Sorry for the lengthy response. I've taken a bit of a break due to a cold that has attacked my body a so now I'm just ready to attack Spanish again. :) Hasta la próxima, diane

Hola Diane, I really think you will enjoy "The Big Red Book" I find it invaluably helpful and as you probably know, it comes with a CD-Rom which has a lot of exercises and quizzes. I going to look into "Spanish Conversation" I'm not familiar with it. For vocabulary I use a flash card program "Cue Card" which was a free download. I don't remember if it was recommended here, on LSLC, or somewhere else. In any case say I'm going to the store and eggplant is on the list and I don't know it, I'll look it up "berenjena" write it into my list of nouns ,verbs, phrases etc. If I need to use a tool or some other item or if I hear a word or phrase on TV that jumps out I'll put it in the list. Often times TV yields an idiomatic or slang usage such as once when watching "El Gordo y La Flaca" I heard that some celebrity "debe mucha lana" and I thought why does he owe a lot of wool? "lana" is Mexican slang for money. And of course I try to use Spanish even when speaking to my wife who only knows how to say ¡ Habla conmigo en inglés o voy a matarte! ( Smile) Saludos, Rich

Rich, Congratulate your wife for me. She knows much more than my husband! Yesterday he did respond correctly though without a translation when I asked "Listo?" That is big progress with him! My cats come running when I call out "gatitos, vienen aquí!". They seem to want to learn Spanish more than my husband. It must be the treats. :) "Spanish Conversation" may or may not be worth it to you. It is very simplistic. I would say that the conversations in it may be worth it just for role-playing and conversational ideas. Do you converse with native speakers on a regular basis? I remember Dan saying that he got together with someone weekly. We're in southern Texas right now and I asked a local if she'd be willing to sit with me on occasion, speak Spanish with me and I would pay her for her time. It sounded like she wanted to but she never called me. I had the same experience at the last place we were at. I got together with someone once and then she never got back to me. It seems like we really clicked and we both had a good time conversing. I questioned her on a couple of occasions about her work schedule that she had to work around and she promised she'd call me but never did. I don't want to be pushy either but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to do it. I mentioned to my husband yesterday that I'd probably be better off asking a talkative 10 year old to chat. The children seem to be easier to understand and probably would love to get paid for just talking. We just don't know anybody in the area so it's been difficult finding someone. I can't find any classes either in this area. It's been a bit disappointing because I thought I'd find all kinds of resources down here. I had better luck finding people in Wisconsin. I'm thinking maybe another resource in this area may be English classes for Spanish speakers. diane

Hola Diane, Unfortunately I don't speak with others regularly. I wish I did but a tutor is not in my budget as all of the ones I've found are muy caro. I remember telling Dan how great it must be to meet weekly and speak with someone. I think that would help me progress quickly as I no longer feel overwhelmed and a lot of things are clicking. I think I'll pass on the book as I have plenty to work with. I have been reading "Laugh 'n Learn Spanish" which is the comic strip "For Better or For Worse" in Spanish with vocabulary, phrases and excersises etc. it progresses in levels, Beginning, Moderate, Challenging. Also I just finished Nivel Tres in LSLC and am going back to lesson 29 and work from there back up to 80. Whew! Let me know what you think of the "Big Red Book". No tengo animales pero me hablo a mi mismo en español en voz alta. Saludos, Rich

nosotros hablamos espaniol

Hola Rich y Diane, Have you asked at your local library if they have a Spanish conversation group, or would consider starting one? The location is neutral and can have many available Spanish resources (i.e. music, books, videos). I have enjoyed a group in my home town for many years. Generally, it is just "gringos" but we all share the desire to learn Spanish. Currently, I am in Mexico and the library here (Merida) meets once a week for conversations in Spanish/English. Patrice

Patrice, I just read this post and the timing is interesting! We live on the road and are in a different location every month. Yesterday I did go in to the local library to ask if they knew of anyone giving Spanish lessons. Unfortunately for me it was a "no". :( I wish I had that availability.

Rich, I wanted to tell you that I got the Big Red Book and I think it will be a fabulous reference book. I really like the sentence examples that are given. Thanks so much for that recommendation and I will pass the recommendation on to mi prima. Also, I have been working through Destinos. I'm up to 39. That may be at a stand still for a month though as we just moved to a spot without wifi so I have to limit my data usage. :( Maybe I'll use my time to get thru Breaking Out of Spanish.

Hola Patrice, I too just read your post. I don't get Email updates, for some strange reason they stopped coming and tech support was unable to figure out why. Thanks for the suggestion. ¡Diviértete en México! Saludos, Rich

Hola Diane, Glad you got the Big Red Book and like it. Yes, the usage examples are great and it really is a fabulous reference book. Sometimes I just read it to read about verbs I'm unfamiliar with. Remember that there is also "Nuevos Destinos" the sequel. Saludos, Rich

Corrected my spelling. I'm the world's worst touch typist.

Rich, I bought my Red Book used and unfortunately it did not come with the cd. Would you say that the cd is worth having? If so, I may get another copy of the book w/cd for my cousin and we can share the cd. I just bookmarked Nuevos Destinos. Thanks!! diane

Hola Diane, Well, I'm glad I have the CD though I don't use it that often and can say the same regarding the Verbarrator and other programs, "Think Spanish" comes to mind. I use them but not for extended periods of time though I value them and wouldn't want to be with out them. I hope that's not too vague, I have a lot of materials and I rotate. I bought my copy of The Red Book new on Amazon but from a seller at a low price and though it was new our then computer was not recognizing the disc. I called McGraw Hill and they pinged it to the computer. I seem to remember something about if you didn't get a disc you could contact them. Not sure about that, but you could try. The disc worked in our subsequent computer.¿ Quien sabe? I hope it's okay to comment regarding the direct and indirect pronouns discussion in the other thread. I think they are very important and I for one am trying to internalize them as they really seem to be essential and they contribute to the rhythm of Spanish. Plus it's fun when you start to get a handle on them. Also, I don't think there is any danger of studying with either Rocket or LSLC that would result in speaking in a snooty manner as they are both geared to spoken and not academic Spanish. Just my thoughts. As you are a LSLC member there is a download available of pronoun exercises both audio and written, kindly offered by member hpwolfe. You can search it on the forum. In addition, LSLC lessons 26 to 29 focus on direct and indirect pronouns really well. Saludos, Rich

Rich: I'm interested in your comment about using lots of different materials and rotating them. Whenever I see a reference to another source I check it out and am tempted to buy. But then I wonder if I am just going down another rabbit hole. Take ''Think Spanish" for example. It looks interesting, and of course as a photographer I am drawn in by the beautiful cover photograph, but then I wonder: with very little work I can find all kinds of things to read in Spanish on the internet so why spend money on this? The same holds for Learning Spanish Like Crazy. Having already invested money in RS, is buying the LSSC program a wise use of my money? Do you truly rotate the programs you study from, or is Rocket Spanish (or another program) the core of your studies and the other programs more auxiliary or supporting ones? Or is it that you have completed RS and have moved on to other programs and circle back to study RS sometimes? Diane, since Rich brought it up, I have been meaning to respond to your comment about sounding snooty. I laughed when I read that, because despite spending a couple of hours or more every day studying Spanish, I think it will be years before anyone thinks that I am snooty rather than thinking I am an inarticulate gringo! Dan

Dan, Great comment all around. What you mentioned to Rich about the various forms of material that he uses, I find myself realizing that I will need to rotate a couple of my sources at some point only because my memory isn't that good and I will have to return to freshen up. A lot of the stuff that I've reviewed already is making much more sense. I'm certainly not as far as Rich but can't wait to get there. I try to practice a lot of patience though because it would be a waste of money to rush through any of my resources and not absorb as much as possible the first time around. I value some of my resources more than others and RS is definitely on top of the list for now. I have one book in particular that I've gained a very large vocabulary from that has made a huge difference! LSLC has been worth it to me so far just because it is more aggressive and it pushes me on. I tend to want to lolli-gag too long in an area that is comfortable. I have had my share of rabbit holes but at the same time I have come across some great study material. The other day I started comparing my learning Spanish to baking a cake. You can't make a cake with just flour. So I'm trying to get superior quality ingredients to make the best cake I can. In other words, I want the best resources for my learning style, and one source just isn't going to do it. We do tend to acquire a lot of resources in our search for the best ones don't we! :) I'm guilty! Rich, Thanks for the info on the download I'll check for that. I did see in The Big Red Book that I could call McGraw Hill. I'm going to try that. Okay. . . Sounding snooty was probably not the best term. How do I put it? A young man from a small Tanzanian village has a chance to come to the US and decides to try to learn some English prior to coming over. He doesn't know anybody locally to teach him but he gets his hands on a 16th century copy of "Learning English Made Easy For The Tanzanian". Well, he gets to New York and is wondering what it will be like in New York that day and asked the lady next to him, "Canst thou wit what the day shall bring?" :P RS and LSLC are very up to date so that example is a little far fetched but I want to make sure that I am learning a "natural" way of talking Spanish more than a "formal". That's where having a tutor, I would think, really has its advantages. I revisited RS 4.9, 4.10 & 6.4 today. Things do start making sense after a while. I'm throwing una fiesta when I finish level 1. That will be soon!! Que tengas un buen día. ¡Hasta luego! diane

Quick question here because I know you guys will be here later. This is from 4.10. Is this reflective?? "Nos reunimos el primer viernes en marzo."

Interesting question, Diane! After thinking it over and consulting my "English Grammar for Students of Spanish" book, I don't think it is. It sounds more like what the book calls a reciprocal action, "we meet with each other," rather than a reflexive. But this is only my (under)educated guess. I am anxious to hear what others say.

Hola amigos, Replying from last to first. Nos reunimos is reflexive, nos is a reflexive pronoun. Dan, I do rotate and my approach is pretty much like Diane's and agree as to the worth of LSLC. I recently completed level 3 and am currently reviewing, I went back to the last two lessons of of level 1 and am now on level 2 and will continue on to the end of level 3. Ironically I have not completed RS but it is on the top of my list as well. As I've said, for me I could not have undertaken LSLC with out RS and I continue with it . But yes LSLC has been the core for the most part. I bought "Think Spanish" at a special offer price which I didn't want to pass up though I was not ready for it. I saved everything from the 1 year subscription and it will be enough for my lifetime. I revisit it from time to time and though it's pretty difficult stuff, I do understand far more then way back when I bought it and hope a year from now I'll understand even more. I'm glad to have it but as you said there is a wealth of free content available. I guess to sum it up, I got a lot of things when the price was really good with the future in mind and have not regretted what I've bought. Diane, me thinketh thy analogy is goode! Saludos, Rich

Amigos, I should have said that in this case nos is reflexive as it is also, as you know, an indirect object pronoun.

Saludos, I am probably out of my league here, but I want to chime in on the reflexive versus reciprocal question. I want to think that it is a reciprocal statement which will have us using a reflexive structure. I get so caught up in trying to get my head around the grammar that it can stall me for eons. So tell me, in the sentence (Nos reunimos el primer viernes en marzo.) is "nos" the IOP because it answers the question of "to whom or for whom"? And in this sentence it is each other or us. Gracias maestros por su ayuda. :)

Hola Patrice, Uh Oh! I was thinking it was a reflexive usage of reunirse " to meet" as opposed to reunir to "unite, join, etc." Now, as often, I'm unsure and don't know if it is reflexive or reciprocal and welcome any help regarding this. Perhaps Cristian Montes de Oca will offer some help. Soy sólo estudiante no soy maestro. ¿Estás en México todavia? Saludos, Rich

Hola amigos, Lo siento. That was not from 4.10 but rather lesson 6.4. (Nos reunimos el primer viernes en marzo.) Their translation is "We meet on the first Friday in March." Grammar is really where I don't shine so well. The following is according to Spanishdict.com "Since reciprocal pronouns are the plural forms of reflexive verbs, they are formed the same way." So, is this reciprocal pronouns in reflexive sheep's clothing?? I may be wrong as to my source but I thought it was LSLC that gave me the impression that doing something to or with someone else, such a kissing, was reflexive. I think the example was a woman brushing a girl's hair. At the time I was wondering why that would be reflexive, but who was I to question it. Anybody have a light switch that they can turn on?? :( diane

Not a light switch, Diane, but a mirror. Substitute the word reflective for reflexive and think of the object of the verb being reflected back to the subject, a metaphorical mirror: I got (myself) up out of bed The woman brushes HER hair The other way I think about this is a crude diagram of the sentence: subject + verb + direct object>subject only in my head I draw an arrow from the object circling back around to the subject. I can't figure out how to do this on the computer!

Dan, I understand the reflecting part of it. That's why I couldn't figure out why kissing somebody would be reflective unless the two of you like watching yourselves in the mirror. That's just weird! Is kissing somebody not reflexive? It seems like maybe I learned that it was from a youtube video. By the way, are you enjoying "English Grammar for Students of Spanish" book? I had it ordered and it never made it to me. I now have it in my Amazon shopping cart and will probably get it. diane

Diane: I could be looking at this in too narrow a context, but I don't think that 2 people kissing one another is reflexive. They kissed the other person, not themselves. I can't think of a context in which a person could kiss him or herself, so I just don't see how the verb "to kiss" can be reflexive. English Grammar for Students of Spanish is an invaluable resource to me. While doing most, if not all, of the Language and Culture lessons in RS I find myself reaching for EGFSOS to clarify or amplify.

Hola amigos, As I wrote initially, I thought nos reunimos was reflexive but now I just don't know. I did know what it meant so I guess that's good. Dan, good explanation of reflexive and I too don't see how two people kissing could be reflexive. Seems like if anything is reciprocal, that is. Glad you find EGFOS helpful. Diane, the example of the woman brushing the girl's hair was from the Verbarrator and it was a mistake in the program and you caught it. Saludos, Rich

Buenos días Rich, I remembered it was Verbarrator after I thought about it for a long while. I still remember something about the reflexive and people doing things to each other from a video and I'm wanting to think it was from Prof. Jason.?? Not sure though. RS was tough on me this morning. My brain is tired and my battery is almost empty on my mac. I guess it's time to hang it up for now. :) ¡Hasta luego!

Hola a todos, Diane, I looked at spanishdict.com. before I sent my note obviously not fully understanding the reciprocal/reflexive angle. But, I too (like Rich) felt like I understood the meaning of the sentence. For now, I am going to take that as progress and keep slogging forward! Rich, I am here in Merida through March! Pura vida definamente! Funny thing happened today when I went to pick up our butt negro and mole poblano from the cocina económica. They are kind enough to talk with me while they package my food. Understanding about 40% of the conversation, the one gal said (jokingly) "She wanted to flee". It was not until I got home that I realized this. I heard: Quiero oir, not Quiero huir. It is a hoot talking to the locals! :)

Hola amigos, Not sure if this will clear things up or not regarding whether "nos reunimos" is reflexive or not but, here is a discussion regarding "reunir" y "reunirse". http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1023122 Saludos, Rich

Patrice, I got a good chuckle this morning. I had no clue what "butt negro" was so I googled it. Some pretty nasty stuff came up! I saw that you got it from the cocina económica so I figure it was comida. I regoogled it with only one "t" and found out exactly what it was. Wow! "Butt negro" should never be googled. :P Lucky you to be in Merida for so long. I'm sure I missed it in another post, but what exactly took you there? I'm in La Feria, TX for a month so the border is available. But, of course, that is only day trips. Not quite the same as what you have. Have fun! Rich, Excellent explanation on that forum! Thanks! diane

I reordered EGFSOS in hopes of getting it this time. It sounds like it will be a good addition to my plethora of stuff. :)

Diane: I was afraid to google the term since I was pretty sure what would come up and I did not want to see that first thing in the morning! Café negro, si. Butt negro, ¡no no no! Funny, google translate returned "but black", while regular google shows the food.

Ay Caramba! My apologies and I hope I am not deleted from the forum for my slip in judgement. I did not even think about what a google of the menu items would reveal. Your comments had me laughing this afternoon. The dish in question is a ground meat seasoned with recado negro (a spicey paste). They add chopped cooked egg on top with rice on the side and a serving of black beans pureed to a soup consistency. Rich, the forum explanation is in great detail and will be one of my study lessons today. Diane, We have been visiting the Yucatan in the Winter months for more than 8 years. The people, language, climate, food, and overall value have brought us here.

I met with my tutor this morning, and we were reviewing section 6, which includes some lessons on the reflexive. So I talked with her about the sentence that Diane posted here, "Nos reunimos el primer viernes en marzo " and asked Sara if she thought it was reflexive. She thinks it is; as odd as it sounds in English, "we are meeting with each other."

It sounds delicious but I'd probably bust a gut laughing if I ever saw it on a menu, just remembering this conversation. :D Patrice, Do you fly down or drive? Some of those areas you'd have to go thru can be pretty rough unless you're with a group. I'd love to take our RV for the winter some year but I wouldn't want to go without a group. Dan, This "Nos reunimos" is still an interesting topic. It is interesting that it would be a reflexive but I know that I have come across similar sentences that were considered reflexive and it pertained to people doing things with each other. I'm quite sure it was in a youtube video of Prof. Jason. I'm not able to watch videos at this time due to the internet here so I can't check it out. But the important thing is is that we knew what it meant. Learning grammar has been a challenge for me!! Anyone care to have a go at critiquing my grammar and spelling errors in a workbook assignment I did yesterday? It's a conversation I had to write between brothers and a new neighbor. I'm sure the punctuation is pretty poor but I'm not too concerned about that. [¡Hola! ¿Cómo esta usted?] (Bien, gracias.) [Bienvenidos al barrio. Me llamo Mario y estos son mis hermanos, se llaman Pedro y José. ¿Cómo se llama?] (Me llamo Juan.) [¿De Dónde eres, Juan? Parece mentir que no eras de este país.] (Tiene razón. Soy de Chile. ¿Hace cuanto tiempo que están en este barrio?) [Hace diez años que vivimos aquí. ¿Ya conoce otro vecinos?] (Ya no, pero ahora yo conozco ustedes. Me gusto conocerles.) [El gusto es nosotros.]

Hola Diane, ¡Bien hecho! Only a few things that I see, bearing in mind that I'm a student. ¿Cómo "está" usted? "Bienvenido" not bienvendos, you are speaking to one person. ¿De donde "es" unless you meant to switch to informal. I'm not sure about the meaning of " Parece mentir" mentir is to lie, following that another informal" eras " El gusto es "nuestro" My humble offering and if I have erred I hope someone will help. Ota vez bien hecho Diane. Oh, please tell me what you meant regarding "Parece mentir" Saludos, Rich

Hola Diane, Rich, y otros, After a translation search, I think that Diane was using a phrase (parece mentir que) which loosely translates to: It seems that, or It is conceivable that, or it appears that. Very interesting! What about otro vecinos should it be otros vecinos?? Rich, bien hecho ud. también. Diane, me encanta la lección. Gracias.

Una más cosa: "eres" no "eras" yo creo. :)

Buenos Días todos, Ahhhhhh - Yes. "Bienvenido" - no 's' . I've only heard that word when with a group so I didn't even think of the singular. Rich - Tienes razón - "De dónde es" would be better because they just met. I have to study that a bit so it sinks in. I've only used "De dónde eres". "Parece Mentira que" (I left out the 'a' in mi tarea), according to my workbook, translates to "It doesn't seem possible". I wonder about a phrase like this. How often would I use it? If I wouldn't use it very often I wouldn't waste brain cells to remember it, at this point anyway. It might be worth it. I'll think on that one. :) Actually, I'll probably remember it forever now that we're discussing it. :D Patrice - I believe your right on "otros". This is very good - I appreciate you guys helping. It sure is stirring up the brain cells! Patrice hit on the "eres" & "eras". That was one spot that I really wasn't sure of. In the workbook it states that "Parece mentira que" requires a subjunctive verb. In attempting to incorporate "Parece mentira que" into my conversation, I was trying to say "It doesn't seem possible that you're from this country." "Are from" I think would be the verb that would have to change to a subjunctive verb, but I'm not sure what that would be. Anybody know? ¡Muchas gracias por toda la ayuda! diane

Diane, You were two steps ahead of me (one step) using the subjunctive and (second step) me not recognizing it! Now, after some studying perhaps the sentence should read: Parece mentir que no sea de este país. I used the subjunctive of ser, thinking that we answer where we are from with ser versus estar.

Hola amigas, Yes, Patrice is right otros is needed with vecinos, somehow I missed that. I searched" parace mentira que" as well and it can mean a number of things depending on context. Very interesting, indeed! If the subjunctive is required then of course neither the present nor the imperfect of ser is correct None of the examples I saw used ser so I don't know which form of the subjunctive is needed, it seems like it would be the present which is "sea".This expression is completely new to me so I'm not sure. Saludos, Rich

This is as good, if not better than a good murder-mystery. :) It's late but I found this and thought I'd share it before turning in. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parece_mentira It's all very interesting. It seems very complex.

Patrice, Yo creo que tienes razón. En el libro que estoy trabajando hay un ejemplo - "Parece mentira que seas norteamericana." - "It doesn't seem possible that you're a North American." Esto fue muy bueno para mí. ¡Gracias! diane

It would be interesting to know if Spanish speakers actually use the terminology "Parece mentira que . . .". Or would they say "No parece posible que . . ." .

Hola a todos, I didn't realize Patrice had already replied when I wrote and yes sea is correct. Diane, I agree, it would be interesting to hear which phrase would be more likely to be used. ¿Cristian donde estás? Necesitamos ayuda por favor. Saludos, Rich