lesson 7.1 "dieser Jahrezeit

Hallo Zusammen

There must be a logical explanation. Dieser Jahrezeit. I understood “er to be a masculine ending. Also understood that all compound words take on the gender of the last word. in other words ”Die Zeit" Probably something to do with the pesky cases.

Please someoe explain this enigma

Maxie

You are right, it’s something to do with cases. Compound nouns take the gender of the last word so Jahreszeit is feminine. So dieser can’t be a masculine form. In fact it is a feminine dative/genitive form. I guess it is dative as genitive doesn’t appear till later in the course, but I can’t see the original phrase as I don’t have level 1.

This is why it is so important to know the genders of nouns.

There is a table for the decension of dieser here:

https://www.verbformen.com/declension/articles/dieser.htm

Hi Simon

Thank you. Maybe sometimes I must just accept things. Maybe I am too pedantic. Was doing a revision on Lieben (level 1)

Came across this "Sie liebt ihren Mann

She loves her husband

Lieben takes accusative and can't find a ihren anywhere under the acc lesson. Her is in acc is “sie”

It sounds right to me, but am puzzled once again.  Do you have any idea why, otherwise will post this under grammar.

I know they can't explain everything in Rocket, but I wish they would or leave those out until later in the course. “Dieser Jahrezeit” was in one of the conversations.

My German penfirend can probably explain all this. She lives near Hanover and apparently they speak a very high level of German in that area. 

Have a good weekend 

Sharon

Hi Simon

Worked it out and feel a bit stupid.

Sie liebt ihren Mann

The ihren is a possessive adjective, once I started thinking about it I realized what it meant.

Not a pronoun in the accusative.  My mind just boggles sometimes and there are many days where I think it has to come together eventually. I guess that is where perseverance comes in. 

At the end of the day, I know I have the tenacity to do this

Sharon

Congratulations on working it out. Yes, ihren is the masculine accusative form of ihr (her) and agrees with Mann. 

Just to confuse the issue, ihr can also mean ‘their’ or ‘your’ (polite) as well as being a pronoun. The context should help work it out.

It will all gradually fall into place, but I needed a grammar book to help me work it out. 

There is web page on posessive adjectives and more on declensions  here:

https://germanwithlaura.com/possessive-adjectives/

Simon

Hi Simon

Yes, I revert to book learning a lot. I am not striving for perfect grammar. I want to understand and be understood when I travel to Europe. Hopefully May next year. 

have a good evening

Sharon

Hi Sharon, 

Welcome to the world of “determiners”! 

German endings revolve about two kinds of words: 1) determiners and 2) adjectives.  

Determiners are classed as belonging mostly to either the definite article ('der'), or the indefinite article ('ein').  

“ihren” in this case is a possive adjective, and all the possessive adjectives fall into the category of ‘ein’ determiners.  That means that whatever you might do to the word ‘ein’, you would do to the possessive adjective.  

So if the (nonsensical but logically true) equivalent of the sentence using ‘ein’ would be ‘Sie liebt einen Mann’ ('ein' in the accusative masculine) , then the possessive adjective equivalent is the sentence you're asking about above, ‘Sie liebt ihren Mann.’  

‘Ein’ determiners are: 

‘ein’ 

‘kein’ 

all possessive adjectives 

‘Der’ determiners are: 

‘der’

‘dieser’

‘jeder’

‘jener’

‘mancher’ (singular)

‘welcher’ 

Indefinite pronouns are also determiners. My rule for those is ‘pretend they're adjectives and go to the rule for adjectives when no determiner is present.'  

I'll end by saying that knowing your ‘ein’ words and your ‘der’ words as ‘determiners' is the key to understanding the whole world of German endings.  

It boils down to 2 tables, 2 rules & 2 exceptions, and that's all there is! 

Doug

btw, “Dieser Jahreszeit” needs the whole sentence in order to make sense of it.  

As you noted, the dictionary gender is feminine ("die" in nominative).  

The full sentence from lesson 7.1 is: 

“Super Idee, aber wo finden wir Schnee in dieser Jahreszeit?”

The clause “in dieser Jahreszeit” is obviously Dative (2-way preposition “in” not in motion). 

“Dieser” is a determiner belonging in the “der” category (see the post just above). 

Thus, what you would do to the definite article ("die" becomes “der” in Dative), you do the same to the determiner ("diese" becomes “dieser” in Dative). 

Hope that helps! 

2 tables, 2 rules & 2 exceptions, and that's all there is! 

Doug 

ok, so sorry, the following is a summary of that tag line (2 tables, 2 rules & 2 exceptions, and that's all there is! ): 

The 2 tables are 1) the strong endings, and 2) the weak endings. 

Rule 1 is: If a determiner is present, the determiner gets the STRONG ending, the adjective gets the WEAK ending. 

Rule 2 is: If a determiner is not present, the adjective gets the STRONG ending.  

Exception 1 is: If the determiner is from the ‘ein’ type, and masc/nom, neut/nom or neut/akk, then the determiner gets NO ending, the adjective gets the STRONG ending. 

Exception 2 is: If the determiner is from the ‘indefinite pronoun’ type, pretend it's an adjective and go to Rule 2.  

That's it! All the endings in German summarized in their entirety!  Laid out this way, it's quite straighforward.   

You still need to know the dictionary gender for every noun. You still need to understand the cases. And you need to know the prepositions and which case(s) they are tied to.  But that comes with time, and your German learning curriculum will cover all that nicely in the fullness of time.

p.s., there is one more exception in the Genitive, but it's really obscure and not worth spending time with while mastering the above. 

Happy Learning! 

Doug 

Hi Doug

Thank you, maybe now I will form a bigger picture.  On Rocket I would be happy to pay for a grammar course with more details, as find the cultural ones frustrating.

That is really interesting and I will need to put some work into that. Not on Rocket, but more book learning. I was aware of welche, diese jener, jeder. One forgets unless one doesn't practice it regulary.

I need to move away from Rocket for a bit and concentrate more on grammar books.

I use Coffee Break Languages. I have bought some of their courses. All their podcasts are free though, just no video and notes. 

I find their courses really practical. Everyday situations. They are quite light on the grammar. but it all forms a bigger picture in the end.

Have a good day

Sharon

Hi Sharon, 

Have a look at the table of strong and weak endings at https://germanwithlaura.com/declension/, 

but use the rules I provided above to navigate them.  I find the basic concept of Laura Bennett's approach brilliant, but I think she misses the mark with an over complicated explanation. 

Take her endings chart as the 2 tables, and apply the 2 rules and 2 exceptions just below: 

Rule 1: When a determiner is present, the determiner gets the STRONG ending, the adjective gets the WEAK ending. 

Rule 2: When a determiner is not present, the adjective gets the STRONG ending. 

Exception 1: Determiner is present and is ‘ein’ type, mask/nom, neut/nom or neut/akk, the determiner gets NO ending, the adjective gets the STRONG ending

Exception 2: Determiner is present and is ‘indefinite pronoun’ type, pretend it's an adjective and go to Rule 2.  

Again, that's it. German endings in a seriously concise nutshell. 

You won't find it explained that way anywhere else, certainly not as succinctly.  

And the more you apply these simple principles while you're making your way through your German learning, the clearer & faster & more useful they will become to you.  

Happy Learning! 

Doug

Hallo zusammen!

First of all, thanks everyone for chipping in and helping out with great explanations and tips!

Just to add to what has been said, you will find some examples of how dieser is used in different cases below:

Diese Jahreszeit ist schön. - This season is nice. (Nom.)

Dieses Buch ist spannend. - This book is thrilling. (Nom.)

Wo hast du dieses Buch gekauft? - Where did you buy this book? (Acc.)

Ich mag dieses Buch. - I like this book.  (Acc.)

Ich mag diese Jahrezeit sehr. - I like this season very much. (Acc.)

Das Buch ist in diesem Schrank. - The book is in this cupboard. (Dat.)

Eine Seite dieses Buches ist kaputt. - A page of this book is broken. (Gen.)

Hope this helps and be assured that everything will eventually fall into place and we're always here to help along the way!

Viele Grüße,

Julia

Hallo Julia

Thank you. It always helps when there are examples. Need to look into this further with the suggestions from gottahaveajava. I apreciate all the help and suggestions I can get

Sharon

Hallo Julia, 

Thanks for the examples!  Examples always help to bring things home and settle things in our minds.  

I might add two more, to fill out your Accusative examples. and to circle back on the original question.  

At first glance, these might make a person crazy, thinking that endings are impossible. But they are perfectly set out in the 2 tables, 2 rules, 2 exceptions approach. 
 

der Wagen

Rule 1: Wo hast du diesen neuen Wagen gekauft? Where did you buy this new car? (Acc.)

Rule 1: Wo hast du deinen neuen Wagen gekauft? Where did you buy your new car? (Acc.)

and  

das Auto

Rule 1: Wo hast du dieses neue Auto gekauft? Where did you buy this new car? (Acc.)

Exception 1: Wo hast du dein neues Auto gekauft? Where did you buy your new car? (Acc.)

Viele Grüße,

Doug

Thank you for adding some more examples Dough!

Viele Grüße,

Julia