Direct and Indirect Objects

stepchook March 5, 2017, 11:24 pm
In lesson 2.1, the following phrase is mentioned:

¿En qué le puedo ayudar?

My understanding is that an indirect object cannot exist in a sentence without a direct object. In the example sentence, I am struggling to understand why the indirect object pronoun "le" is used because I would have thought that "you" is a direct object.

I would translate this sentence as "In what can I help you?" So, in terms of the parts of this sentence, I would see "I" as being the subject, "help" as being the verb and "you" as being the direct object.

But if "le" is being used as an indirect object pronoun, then can someone explain to me where the direct object is in the example sentence?
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 6, 2017, 12:49 am
Ok, so after some scratching around, I think I might have found the answer!

Apparently, there is such a thing as leísmo: in some regions of Spain people commonly use "le" as a direct object instead of "lo". However, they wouldn't use "le" instead of "la"; so they'd say "le veo" for "I see him" and "la veo" for "I see her".

Also, and perhaps the answer I'm looking for: there is the "leísmo de cortesia": people use "le" as a direct object when referring to someone  that they would normally address as "usted": "¿Le ayudo?", "Mucho gusto en conocerle", etc. That makes the most sense to me, seeing that "usted" is being implied in the example sentence I quoted.

Apparently, this type of "leísmo" is very common both in Spain and many Latin American countries and is in fact a norm rather than an exception...Read More
Ok, so after some scratching around, I think I might have found the answer!

Apparently, there is such a thing as leísmo: in some regions of Spain people commonly use "le" as a direct object instead of "lo". However, they wouldn't use "le" instead of "la"; so they'd say "le veo" for "I see him" and "la veo" for "I see her".

Also, and perhaps the answer I'm looking for: there is the "leísmo de cortesia": people use "le" as a direct object when referring to someone  that they would normally address as "usted": "¿Le ayudo?", "Mucho gusto en conocerle", etc. That makes the most sense to me, seeing that "usted" is being implied in the example sentence I quoted.

Apparently, this type of "leísmo" is very common both in Spain and many Latin American countries and is in fact a norm rather than an exception. 

I'd be interested in what some of the advanced speakers of Spanish think about this explanation?
Direct and Indirect Objects
ricardo-rich March 6, 2017, 8:22 pm
Hola Step,

Here is a quote from D. Richmond's book Spanish Pronouns And Prepositions. "In a sentence with an indirect object, there is always a direct object, either stated or implied. In the sentence"My grandmother writes me every week," me is the indirect object because my grandmother is writing something (a note, a letter, a postcard, an e-mail message ) to me. The direct object is understood."  And here is a link regarding "leismo".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmRqCUoX50

Saludos,

Ricardo



 
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 6, 2017, 8:58 pm
Hola Ricardo,

The example of someone writing a letter to someone else is a popular one because the DO and IO are fairly obvious, even when the DO is implied.

However, in the example sentence that I cited, I would argue that there is no IO at all. Hence my confusion over the apparent use of an IO pronoun. 

There is is also debate over the verb "ayudar" and whether it is used transitively or intransitively.

I think in this case, though, that the issue is one of "leísmo" and not one of a hidden IO.

Gracias -
Steve
Direct and Indirect Objects
Dan-H24 March 7, 2017, 11:19 am
Steve: Perhaps the implied or hidden direct object is whatever the person is offering to help you (the IO) with? The way the sentence is structured,

"In what (or, as we would probably say in English, 'how') can I help you?"

Does not lend itself to imagining an implied DO, but if it was restructured such as:

"Puedo ayudarte?" the implied DO might be more easy to imagine.

Just my dos centavos.

Dan
Direct and Indirect Objects
the-hefay March 7, 2017, 5:25 pm
I hear le ​ with ayudar​  all the time here in Peru.  I'm not sure if it's grammatically correct or not.  I just know that when you walk in a store you hear ​¿En qué puedo ayudarle?

 
Direct and Indirect Objects
Dan-H24 March 7, 2017, 7:49 pm
Jeff: Perhaps a more formal greeting than ayudarte?
Direct and Indirect Objects
ricardo-rich March 7, 2017, 9:02 pm
Hola a todos,

Yes it's the formal and it's grammatically correct. Dan's restructured example ¿Puedo ayudarte?  is also correct and helpful. I agree the"help" whatever that might be, is the DO, for whomever the"le" IO refers to. "Leísmo" is the use of le as a singular masculine direct object instead of lo. Le veo. I see him. Lo veo. I see him.

Saludos,

Ricardo
Direct and Indirect Objects
the-hefay March 7, 2017, 9:49 pm
Yes Dan, as Ricardo says, it's formal. 

​Thanks for the input Ricardo.  That's what I was thinking, but I just wasn't sure.
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 7, 2017, 10:48 pm
Thanks, Ricardo and Dan. That actually makes a lot of sense. As you say, when you help someone you're actually helping them with something. So, in that sense, there is an implied IO and therefore le is appropriate.

I really enjoyed the Lightspeed Spanish video, by the way, Ricardo. He has a very simple approach and I particularly liked his take on present perfect, pluperfect and preterite. He's a great teacher!
Direct and Indirect Objects
ricardo-rich March 7, 2017, 11:16 pm
Steven,
De nada amigo. Here is another LightSpeed video that is both informative and very funny!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pil4tCAtjo8

Saludos,

Ricardo
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 10, 2017, 6:39 pm

Hola a todos, ¿cómo estás?  

Steven - gaaa, that line in lesson 2.1, I had the very same confusion, and the same awesome group here helped me wrestle it to the ground. But some days my mind STILL blanks out on it!

And in a weird way, I am lucky with studying, I have nothing but time due to a disability that has kept me housebound for over a year, and spending hours on Rocket has been the closest thing I have to a buddy.  I can go over lessons until they are (almost) burned into my brain. But Direct Object and Indirect Object still jump out and trip me up, they're wicked, lol.

So, it was great to read new tips on dealing with them, I am glad I wandered around in the forum and found this thread.  Good to "see"you all.

Chao,
Kelly
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 10, 2017, 8:25 pm
Hi Kelly,

I'm one of those who, when learning a new language, simply must understand the grammar! I'm probably my own worst enemy in that respect. But how else will I improve in my speaking skills if I don't really understand verb tenses and their conjugation?

Thanks for your encouragement.

Steve
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 11, 2017, 12:30 am
Steve - 

I agree, I need to get some sort of handle on the grammar, I don't want to write and talk "Tarzan" forever, and I was kind of stuck on that plateau, and realized it was because I was really neglecting the grammar.

I have given myself a big push, and joined Olly Richards Fluent Spanish Academy - it is great.
 It is for intermediates, which I am not (don't let the points fool you, that's just the obsessive listening and recording for hours), but I am not a total day one beginner, either - so it is an even bigger challenge, but I have to say -  the grammar tutoring is awesome.
I am weaning away a bit from Rocket and trying to divide my time now between Rocket and the Academy, and for me, the two together are really giving my Spanish the boost it needed...Read More
Steve - 

I agree, I need to get some sort of handle on the grammar, I don't want to write and talk "Tarzan" forever, and I was kind of stuck on that plateau, and realized it was because I was really neglecting the grammar.

I have given myself a big push, and joined Olly Richards Fluent Spanish Academy - it is great.
 It is for intermediates, which I am not (don't let the points fool you, that's just the obsessive listening and recording for hours), but I am not a total day one beginner, either - so it is an even bigger challenge, but I have to say -  the grammar tutoring is awesome.
I am weaning away a bit from Rocket and trying to divide my time now between Rocket and the Academy, and for me, the two together are really giving my Spanish the boost it needed. 
So, it is worth checking out - it is a bit pricy but occasionally it goes on sale - I jumped on it when it was on sale, no way could I afford the regular price. 
If it sounds interesting to you, I will keep my eye out when it goes on sale again and let you know.
In the meantime, keep kicking that grammar's a**!  

Chau!
Kel

p.s.
And for pronunciation, Idahosa Ness's Mimic Method "The Flow of Spanish" is awesome also.
 
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 11, 2017, 6:49 am
Hi Kelly,

The Oly Richards academy certainly does interest me! I just went onto their website and apparently there is a waiting list. There is also no indication on pricing - can you tell me what sort of cost I should expect.

As far as pronunciation goes, I really don't have any issues there. I guess I'm just lucky that way!

I do speak other languages, such as German and Croatian, although neither is a romantic language so they won't really help that much. I only just started learning Spanish three weeks ago, so I'm probably too much of a beginner for the OR Academy. What do you think?
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 11, 2017, 8:34 pm
Hi Steve!

I am in awe of anyone who can speak multiple languages, and Croatian is one of my favorites  - My partner is 1/2 Croatian and his father can still speak a little bit.  It's a beautiful language, so....kudos!

I don't know if you are too much of a beginner, technically 3 weeks says yes, but if you learn as quickly as it seems, it is quite possible you could tackle the Academy.  Did you try his free sample of the course?  It is offered on the website at the very bottom, I think.

So, normally the price is steep, $97 a month (waaaaay out of my league) - but it seems that when room in the course opens up, he has a quick one or two day sale for people on the list -  $35 a month.  

So, my best suggestion is download the free offer to get an idea of it, and if you like it, hop on the waiting list...Read More
Hi Steve!

I am in awe of anyone who can speak multiple languages, and Croatian is one of my favorites  - My partner is 1/2 Croatian and his father can still speak a little bit.  It's a beautiful language, so....kudos!

I don't know if you are too much of a beginner, technically 3 weeks says yes, but if you learn as quickly as it seems, it is quite possible you could tackle the Academy.  Did you try his free sample of the course?  It is offered on the website at the very bottom, I think.

So, normally the price is steep, $97 a month (waaaaay out of my league) - but it seems that when room in the course opens up, he has a quick one or two day sale for people on the list -  $35 a month.  

So, my best suggestion is download the free offer to get an idea of it, and if you like it, hop on the waiting list.

If you think it is too advanced or even too pricy at the sale price, there is a great (Well, I really like him) guy, Gringo Jordan, who has tons of free videos, and SO many on grammar.  The first link is to his YouTube page, just scroll down a bit and you will find them:

https://www.youtube.com/user/gringoespanol 

And he has a very inexpensive "member" page that has a verb conjugation boot camp that absolutely kicks ass.  I have a love/hate relationship with it, haha.

https://spanishdude.com/premium/lifetime-member/

Some people like me love his style, others hate it.  
But  he is worth checking out for the tons of free grammar content that is really pared down to the basic patterns, and it takes the "Oh dear GOD" grammar dread away quite a bit - again, this is just my opinion.  
I need uncluttered explanations because I was horrible with English grammar in school, and I totally walked away from it.  So when I started Spanish, I was" WTF is the subjunctive past in English, for chissake???"  

¡Espero estas son útiles, y tienes un gran fin de semana!

Chau, 
Kel
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 11, 2017, 8:40 pm
Okay weird, the first link says he does not exist.  Let me try something else:

https://spanishdude.com

Yes, total page overhaul. This should work.  
 
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 11, 2017, 10:41 pm
Hi Kelly,

I signed up for the waiting list and received the free sample. Admittedly, the dialogue was too fast for me but when I played it again with the transcript, it was a little easier to follow.

Obviously there was unfamiliar vocabulary there and also the fact that I've yet to learn any of the other tenses and their associated conjugations. But I do like the concept, I have to say. I like the way they start off at a natural speaking pace and then they slow it down. Then, of course, Olly breaks it down even further by translating each sentence. That's pretty cool.

If a place were to become available tomorrow, I'd probably be hesitant to sign up (even at the discounted price) but I'm hoping that I'll have advanced enough by the time a spot does come up...Read More
Hi Kelly,

I signed up for the waiting list and received the free sample. Admittedly, the dialogue was too fast for me but when I played it again with the transcript, it was a little easier to follow.

Obviously there was unfamiliar vocabulary there and also the fact that I've yet to learn any of the other tenses and their associated conjugations. But I do like the concept, I have to say. I like the way they start off at a natural speaking pace and then they slow it down. Then, of course, Olly breaks it down even further by translating each sentence. That's pretty cool.

If a place were to become available tomorrow, I'd probably be hesitant to sign up (even at the discounted price) but I'm hoping that I'll have advanced enough by the time a spot does come up.

How far have you gone with Rocket Spanish? Have you done the Platinum level already?
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 12, 2017, 1:05 am
Hey, Steve - 

That is great that you got the samples!  Actually, I never did, I just stumbled upon a day when the course was at a discount and immediately signed up without a clue as to what I was getting into.

I am only in my first month, and was sick the first two weeks, so it is still very new for me, but so far I absolutely love it, even though technically I am probably "last in class."  I really have no business being there, but I needed a push, I was stagnating, so I pushed hard. 
I was curious as to what he offers in the samples, so went to another e-mail address and got them also.  

To answer your question, OMG no, I am nowhere near the Rocket Platinum level yet!  (Although on some days I sneak over to listen to the dialogue, just to shake the tree a bit...Read More
Hey, Steve - 

That is great that you got the samples!  Actually, I never did, I just stumbled upon a day when the course was at a discount and immediately signed up without a clue as to what I was getting into.

I am only in my first month, and was sick the first two weeks, so it is still very new for me, but so far I absolutely love it, even though technically I am probably "last in class."  I really have no business being there, but I needed a push, I was stagnating, so I pushed hard. 
I was curious as to what he offers in the samples, so went to another e-mail address and got them also.  

To answer your question, OMG no, I am nowhere near the Rocket Platinum level yet!  (Although on some days I sneak over to listen to the dialogue, just to shake the tree a bit.).

I am in the beginning of level 2, finished module 9 and am now vacillating between modules 10 and 13.  I obsess over certain lessons almost to the point of burnout, and to avoid that I leap into another module just for something fresh to fiddle with.
It's a weird way to study, and probably not the best way, but......it fits my personality, I guess. *shrug*
Anyway, I am so glad you got some of the Academy work, and are on the list. I honestly feel like the last two weeks working with it every day has already slightly bumped up my speaking and comprehension skills.  I hope you get lucky and when you feel ready, the discount price comes up and you get in.  
Just from reading this whole thread, it seems to me that you are a fast and focused learner - what module are you on, if I may ask? (I often go back in to Premium level one to refresh what I still consider weak spots, so I am curious as to where you are)


 
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 12, 2017, 3:56 am
Hi Kelly,

I am only on Level 1 Module 2. But I tend to obsess over something which motivates me and languages generally fit that description. Which is why I felt obliged to watch the entire set of beginner videos which Lightspeed Spanish has.

I like to think that I have a certain knack for languages although, admittedly, that's probably a very subjective opinion. I guess it also helps that I feel like Spanish is a very flowing language which is easy on the tongue.

Thanks for all your advice and suggestions. It's great to meet someone who is apparently as obsessed with "éxito" as I am!

 
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 12, 2017, 9:56 pm
Hey, Steve - 

You went through all of the lightspeed videos!?! - I am a Spanish learning "hoarder"  and have given myself too many choices - I love lightspeed, and have only watched two or three, and keep meaning to get back to them - - - aye!

And yes, I don't feel like such a lunatic with my word and sentence obsessions, so it has been great to meet you also.  

Keep on truckin!

Chau,
Kel
Direct and Indirect Objects
stepchook March 12, 2017, 10:32 pm
Hey Kel,

No, not ALL of the lightspeed videos! Only the Beginner series ones - the first 30. Actually, for some reason they start at 4, so technically the first 27. I like the way Gordon explains things, although the Castilian lisp has me reaching for an umbrella!

¡Sigamos practicando!
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 13, 2017, 1:47 am
JAjJAJAAAAA!!!!

I skype with my buddy in Tarragona all the time, and I absolutely refuse to pronounce "aceite" with a Castilian accent, (we talk a lot about food, and edible oils come up often) and it always turns into a very fun discussion in Spanish (lots of hand throwing and " ¡me rindo!")

I am going to use your line on him next time we talk:

"¿Estamos hablando de aderezo para ensaladas? ¿Dónde está mi paraguas?"

Freaking brilliant.

Disfrute de obsesionarse, ¡hasta luego!  

 
Direct and Indirect Objects
KelllaurBailar March 15, 2017, 2:15 pm
It is hard also for me to understand Gordon's Spain accent
-Laura (or "The Old Man," that's for Kelly )
 
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 15, 2017, 11:55 pm
Hi Laura!

Long time no see - - (totally on me, I have not been in the forum in forever)

Yes, this "old man" really does NOT want to speak with the Castilian lisp.   I just....no.

¿Cómo has estado?  
Direct and Indirect Objects
KelllaurBailar March 16, 2017, 1:14 am
I've been well! Shooting  AND dancing in my spare time haha it's a deadly combo . And you? Ps. Hope you feel well soon
-"The Old Man"-
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 18, 2017, 2:56 am
"Shooting and Dancing" - It sounds rather appropriate for the state of the world, I think, lol.

I am fine, just trying to not succumb to total exhaustion because I am trying to do more than I am able to right now.  I have been used to being housebound, but for some reason it is getting to me now - I want to move quickly again, and I am not there yet, grrr.

Because....I want to shoot and dance, too, jajajajajjjjj

"See" you soon!

Chau,
Kel
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 18, 2017, 3:01 am
Oh, And Steve?

I skyped with my friend in Tarragona today, and used the " ¿Dónde está mi paraguas?"  line on him, got the perfect reaction from him, then promptly used the wrong word for something, and the word I used was, well, filthy.
It's THE worst vocabulary mistake I have ever made on a skype.  
Talk about instant Karma, ouch, jajaja
It was a fantastically fun skype, so thank you for letting me steal your line and promptly getting smacked down by the Vocab Gods.  It was awesome, lol!
Direct and Indirect Objects
KelllaurBailar March 18, 2017, 6:25 pm
Kelly, 
I admire your ambition, and I'm sure one day you will be able to shoot and dance also
Direct and Indirect Objects
KellyMJara March 27, 2017, 7:39 pm
Laura - and a headstand, too.
Direct and Indirect Objects
KelllaurBailar March 27, 2017, 8:20 pm
That' s definitely something I have not yet mastered; I hope you beat me to it!
Direct and Indirect Objects

Ask a question or a post a response

If you want to ask a question or post a response you need to be a member.

  • If you are already a member login here.

  • If you are not a member you can become one by taking the free Rocket Spanish trial here.

Over 1,200,000 people love Rocket Languages

Here's what Rocket Languages members have to say:

Andrei Freeman - Pennsylvania, USA

Andrei
Freeman

Pennsylvania, USA

Rudi Kopp - USA

Rudi
Kopp

USA

Carmen Franceschino - Pennsylvania, USA

Carmen
Franceschino

Pennsylvania, USA

Kelly Scali - Chicago, USA

Kelly
Scali

Chicago, USA

Mark Waddel - Auckland, NZ

Mark
Waddell

Auckland, NZ

William McGill - Florida, USA

William
McGill

Florida, USA

Probably the best language tool I've come across. Actually love it more than Rosetta Stone and Duolingo

Try our award-winning online Spanish course for FREE 受賞歴ありの英語学習ソフトウェアを無料でお試しください Pruebe nuestro galardonado software del idioma inglés GRATIS

(And see how easy it actually is to learn Spanish... even if you've tried and failed before) (そして英語学習がどれだけ簡単か、肌で感じてみてください…今までに失敗したことのある人でもそれが分かるでしょう) (Y vea qué tan fácil es en realidad aprender inglés… aún si lo ha intentado y fallado antes)