Forum Rocket Spanish Spanish - Grammar Hubiéramos visitado otros lugares pero...

Hubiéramos visitado otros lugares pero...

Steven-W15

Steven-W15

In a Skype conversation, I said the following:
Hubiéramos visitado otros lugares pero no había tiempo para ello.

And I was corrected with the following phrase:
Teníamos que haber ido…

I didn't want to belabor the point (she was the expert after all!) but it still seems to me that both phrase are correct but are saying two very different things. Am I wrong?
Dan-H24

Dan-H24

Steven: was it your intention to say, "we would have visited other places but there was no time for it? If so, using the future tense makes more sense to my English-speaking mind than "we had to have gone," which doesn't seem to make much sense in the context provided.
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

Exactly (subjunctive though, past hypothetical - not future):
We would have visited other places but there wasn't time for it.

I think the following phrase likewise could have been used:
- Habrían visitado otros lugares pero no había tiempo para ello.

We had to have gone - I agree, I can only think of a very convoluted context where I could even use this phrase.
Dan-H24

Dan-H24

Steven: thanks for the correction. I have not yet studied the subjunctive so I can still pretend it doesn't exist!

I am glad that Conversation Exchange.com is working out for you too. Along with a few others on a more irregular basis, I have been meeting weekly with a teacher in Spain for a couple of months now. She works in a Spanish language school there and many of her students are English speakers, some from the US. So she has the perfect skill set to help me improve my listening and speaking abilities.
Ava Dawn

Ava Dawn

There is a lot more lessons in the subjunctive in the Platinum level. It forces me to learn it. So slowly but surely. Someday, I'll try this Skype thing. I love these conversations. It gives me a glimpse of things besides the "saludos". I could tell that if Steven and Dan would meet in a park somewhere, you could already converse very naturally.
Dan-H24

Dan-H24

Speaking of the subjunctive, I just got an email from Gordon and Cynthia over at LightSpeed Spanish. They have a new book out called Demystifying the Spanish Subjunctive. That might be a good adjunct resource when I start the Platinum course in a few weeks.
ricardo-rich

ricardo-rich

Hola a todos,

Hubiéramos visitado is: Had we visited so the past perfect subjunctive doesn't work in the phrase as constructed. Hubiera sabido, Had I known, Hubiéramos comido, had we eaten etc. I don't see where the We had to have  figures in ?  I think Steven"s second phrase in the conditional perfect is just as correct as using the imperfect tense and in my opinion is a better choice, but I'm a gringo student, not a native speaker.
Saludos,
Ricardo



 
marieg-rocket languages

marieg-rocket languages

Hola a todos!

I think Steven's first sentence makes perfect sense... There's really nothing wrong with it... Hubiéramos visitado otros lugares expresses correctly the desire to go but something stopped you from doing it... Teníamos que haber ido is grammatically correct but it sounds more like a compromise (something you HAVE to do) rather than desire...

Regards!
ricardo-rich

ricardo-rich

Hola Marie,

Once again, thank you for being here for us. I'm a bit confused as to Hubiéramos visitado otros lugares expressing desire or what might have occurred but something prevented it. Why is this not in the "conditional perfect" as Habríamos visitado otros lugares but something stopped it from happening? I'm thinking of the "past perfect subjunctive" also called the "pluperfect subjunctive" being used as: Él esperaba que hubiéramos vistado México.or as a hypothetical "if" such as : Si  hubiéramos visitado Méxíco lo habríamos disfrutado. Teníamos que haber ido implied obligation to me as well. Am I wrong about this?

Gracias,
Ricardo
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

Hola Marie - what you described is exactly as I understood it. Thanks to all.
marieg-rocket languages

marieg-rocket languages

Hola Ricardo,

On your first post, if you use the expression: "Had we visited" the translation in Spanish would have been "Si hubiéramos visitado" but that would change the meaning of the sentence: "Si hubiéramos visitado otros lugares lo habríamos disfrutado más" for example; but Steven mentioned that he didn't have the time to go to those other places; but he wanted to.

The Conditional Perfect is used either when you want to form a compound sentence with the conditional si (Yo habría ido si hubiera tenido el dinero.) Or when you make a retorical question in the past (¿Dónde habría estado Juanito? - Habría estado con los amigos)

So, you could have said "Habríamos visitado otros lugares si hubiéramos tenido tiempo para ello." And that would also be totally correct; but Steven didn't use the conditional si, he choose to use pero, so the usage of the pluperfect subjunctive is correct.

And I agree about the obligation in Teníamos que haber ido it sounds like an order :P

I hope I don't confuse you! Regards!
 
ricardo-rich

ricardo-rich

Hola Marie,

Gracias por tu respuesta, es claro y muy útil.

Saludos,
Ricardo
ricardo-rich

ricardo-rich

Hola Steven y todos,

 Even after Marie's helpful explanation, I was still somewhat perplexed, as I had not come across the The Pluperfect Subjunctive used as Steven did. I found the following footnote sandwiched within The Spanish Subjunctive Up Close by Eric Voght: "In many regions of Latin America, the pluperfect subjunctive is used as an equivalent of the conditional perfect." ¡Por fin veo la luz!

Saludos,
Ricardo
 
Ava Dawn

Ava Dawn

When I am translating a sentence to my co-workers, they would stop and think for a minute, they would then correct me. I am actually okay if that is the end of it, but they will offer another  translation.. I usually just stop them. I tell them that I am so new at this and to stop confusing me. I was okay with Steven's sentence. By the time I read everybody's input except maybe with Marie affirming the first sentence, it went over my head. I am just starting to learn the subjunctives. Maybe in a couple more years, I could appreciate the different nuances.
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

This is no doubt a good example of how languages evolve over time. The original construct would have been Habrían visitado yet, at the same time, the phrase represents a past tense hypothetical - hence the use of the (pluperfect) subjunctive. Thanks all for your comments.
 

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