Grammar

Hi All

Yet another questio

n. Wrote to my German friend

Said “Ich habe keine ahnung was er will machen.”

She wrote back saying it should have been :ich habe keine  Ahnung was er machen will.

I always understood that the infinitive goes to the end with a modal verb, as in wollen.

Oh my word, will it evet become natural!

Maxie

Hi Maxie

I think the clue to the problem here is a missing comma after Ahnung.

“Ich habe keine Ahnung, was er machen will.”

The sentence is in two parts, main clause and subordinate clause. So the main clause has habe in the usual place and will is kicked to the end after machen.

Lesson 9.10 has some information about this, but it only deals with subordinating conjunctions.

I hope I got that right. :-)

Simon

HI Simon

Thanks for information on both. Have looke at the subordinate clauses and conjunctions. As usual bad vague and mixed information on Rocket's part. 

Will look at more detail at the site you suggested. 

Having criticized their grammar lessons there are some that are really good. Like the one on acc prepositions and superlatives.

Take care

Sharon

Hi Maxie,

There is a whole load more on subordinate clauses, such as relative clauses and indirect and reported speech. Perhaps the tutor will elaborate. They all have the kicking the verb to the end feature.  Being rather simple minded, I tend to lump them all together as suborinate clauses. :-)

Here is a link from Deutsche Welle on relative clauses, that is clauses started with a relative pronoun.

https://learngerman.dw.com/en/relative-clauses/l-38266034/gr-39388633

HI Simon

I think I lump a lot of grammar together and have quite a gung ho attitude with it all. As I have said before I probably make an idiot of myself when it comes to Portuguese grammar, but I am understood and at this stage that is what counts, to me anyway. 

My husband's family is now in Portugal and my one brother in law is Portuguese through and through. Home language etc etc. He met a guy and the man told him his Portuguese was coming along nicely. My brother in law was not amused! Made me laugh. Mozambican Portuguese accent and words can be different, but he speaks proper Portuguese and was still mistaken as a foreigner. The best was his indignation.

As for Philip as far as he is concerned Brazilian is not Portuguese. Makes me laugh too. I know that my German friend speaks high German and considers Bavarian poor German.

So will cobble along and as long as I can have a conversation, I'm good.

Thanksgiving here, so a busy time

Sharon

groess Gott,

I have no idea what the word, “ahnung” means.  I suspect it is something like, “idea”.

By context I deduce that “ahnung” is a noun.

I learned a hundred years ago that  all nouns in German are always capitalized which is what your penpal corrected from your note.

I studied German in college about 50 years ago and it is very interesting that the language has changed.  In college i would, “eine Fahrkarte kaufen”.  Last week in Rocket German, I learned that today I would, ein Ticket kaufen.  

The world is trully homogenising (Sp?)!

Viel Spass!

Ed F

Hi Ed

I never picked that up in the forum, but in my email to her I did add Ahnung, with a capital “A”. Just an oversight on my part. It was the sentence structure that puzzled me, but I think Simon is correct, it has to do with the clauses. 

You are correct languages are getting mixed up. South Africans are really good at that. Mixing Zulu, English and Afrikaans. I think there are about 13 official languages in S.A., so even more are probably mixed up together.

Enjoy your language learning

Sharon

I can see clearly now.

I commented on the uncapitalized noun on my last response.

I now understand the conundrum regarding the podition of the infinitive with a modal auxiliary verb.

I assume that German will have exceptions in grammar similar to English coupling verbs and adjectives.

Cheers!

Ed Fred

Hi Ed

Its not a problem. Sometimes one just has to accept the exceptions to the rule. I hate having to capitilize nouns. Such a nuisance. German sentences are much more flexible than English ones , I gather, but there will always be the exception. MY German friend is very particular about grammar, but haven't had a chance either to ask her. I'm sure that Simon got it right, as his explanation about clauses sounded spot on.

Take vare and happy learning

Sharon

Hi all, 

Simon's explanation is spot on! We're dealing with a subordinate clause here which is introduced by the question word was. Hence, a comma is placed before the question word (e.g. was, wer, wann, wie, wo) and the conjugated verb is pushed to the end. 

Here are some other examples:

"Ich weiß nicht, was ich machen soll." - “I don't know what to do.”

“Ich weiß, wer er ist.” - “I know who he is:”

“Ich frage Thomas, wann der Vortrag beginnt.” - "I'll ask Thomas when the presentation starts."

“Ich habe keine Ahnung, wo das Museum ist.” -  “I have no idea where the museum is.”

Viele Grüße,

Julia

Thanks Julia

More examples always help to put things in perspective.

Maxie

Hi Maxie, 

I'm just catching up here, finding a couple interesting topics in this thread. 

The piece of the puzzle that's missing is that there are two verbs, not one.  And when the subordinate clause kicks all the verbs to the end of the sentence, the conjugated verb finishes up at the very end.  

You can look at your sentence and reverse engineer it a bit by untangling the subordinate clause into “normal” word order.  

In the following, the modal wollen gets conjugated and the main verb machen winds up as an infinitive at the end.  

“Was will er machen? ”

In the answer, the subordinate clause forces the conjugated verb to the end of the sentence.  

“Ich habe keine Ahnung, was er machen will.”

It takes time, but it does become second nature after a while.  

I know I've said this before, but the app really is almost ready now.  I'll be in touch via email. 

Hope you're well, 

gottahaveajava

Hi Maxie, 

I'm reading the observations above about Portuguese with real interest. 

I'm a musician, and one of my specialties is Brazilian choro on the bandolim. As a result, I've taken a few stabs at learning Brazilian Portuguese and have developed a reasonably instinctive command of the Brazilian pronunciations.  

Because of immigration complications, we're now looking at potentially moving to Portugal as a way of getting closer to Austria, and I've been taking online classes with a school that operates out of Lisbon. 

European Portuguese sounds SOOO much different to Brazilian Portuguese. They have different rhythmic fundamentals, and the special sounds that do not occur in English are in clear opposition on either side of the Atlantic.  They could almost be different languages! 

So I'm not surprised that your native-speaking friend was taken for a non-native speaker. However frustrating that may have been, it's more a source of humor and comedy than distress, I'd think. He should simply have been entertained by what they didn't know! 

gottahaveajava

Hi Doug

Well my brother in law is a bit of a prat at times and din't see the humour in it. Made me laugh at any rate. Can't imagine what they would think of my Portuguese! I don't speak Brazilian Portuguese, but find it quite melodic and can understand it if they speak slowly

Coffee Break languages has Portuguese. The teacher is Brazilian and they have tried to incoporate Brazilian, Mozambican and Europena Portuguese. I listened to one podcast out of interest and found it confusing and a bit irritating. Maybe I don't have a sense of humour either. 

Their podcasts are free and you may find them useful. 

I's be quite happy to move to Portugal, a lot of my husband's family is there now form  South Africa. Maybe one day. One thing I will say is that it is warmer than Austria.

Take care

Sharon

Hi Sharon, 

Brazilian Portuguese is much prettier and more musical than European Portuguese. European Portuguese has been described as a “throat condition” by some, with its swallowed vowels and heavy nasalisation.  There are some dark sounds in European Portuguese that make it sound almost Russsian (!), and there's no trace of that in Brazilian Portuguese.  

The climate in Portugal sounds quite a bit nicer than Austria, as you say, but its milder climate, like that of San Francisco and New Zealand, means that there has never been the need for central heating and proper insulation. Winters may be cold in Austria, but the houses are toasty warm! 

Doug

Hi Doug

You may get cold in the winter in Portugal. My 2 youngest daughters were there in January. They were so cold at night, jumped into a twin bed to stay warm. They were not happy, as here in Canada houses are well insulated and good heating. It is like Johannesburg, winters are cold and dry, but one absolutely freezes. The windows rattle and it is misrable. No central heating and no insulation. If you are in Southern Portugal I believe it is warmer and gets very hot in summer.

Even so looking at the temepratures in winter in Lisbon they are much milder than Vancouver Island and we are known as the California of Canada.

 So pack your winter woolies.

I am intrued as to why it is complicated to move to Austria. I know that you have lived there in the past?

Sharon

Hallo zusammen,

I feel that I may be a frustrated linguist.  I have studied Latin, French, German, and Spanish.  I did self study when, at my town's trash recycling center,  I stumbled on a thin paperback with the title, “How to speak Russian in a weekend.  Fast forward and I learned in 2 years there are 28 (I think, maybe 29 or 30) letters in the russian alphabet.  It was interesting that enentually I could acually read words and I think short sentences.  I did not have access to a native speaker so I doubt that my pronounciation was at all correct  I learned somewhere that the cyrilic (SP?) alphabet is taken from Greek! 

 I am really enjoying this forum because of references to languages other than German.  I am fascinated about Brasillizn Portugese vs. euopean.  I really enjoy that somebody comes from the UK, another from S. Afrika.   I am not sure who is in Oestreich.  At the end of the day I really think that this forum will improve my English even though it is my mother language!  I feel presure to make certain that "All my t's are crossed and my i's are dotted.  Rocket German (Rocket Languages) has inspired me ro improve my language awarenes.

My life experience intoduced me to the conflict between Parisien  and Candian French.

Endlich, danke alle fuer geben mich viel Spass! ( Entschuldigung fuer meine Fehler)

Elko Ed

Hi Elko Ed

Your Forum post made me laugh!  I love those “Learn a language in 48 hours” Yes, maybe Guten Tag and Danke,  Hola and gracias, Ciao Grazie. Was listening to a guy say he was German so could speak Afrikaans. I speak Afrikaans fluently, although English is my mother tongue and there is no way he speaks Afrikaans. Granted there are similarities, but at the end of the day German is far more complex in Grammar. So he may recognize words and think he is speaking Afrikaans. 

As for Quebequois French and Parisien French, the colonies never quite cut it. So South African English was not the queens English. or Mozambiquen Portuguese not quite the same weight as European Portuguese. And My husband who is Portuguese from Mozambique reckons Brazilain Portuguese is not Portuguese at all. Makes me laugh as he is a bit of a snob where Portuguese is concerned. 

Personally I don't care, my accent may be wrong, my grammar not spot on, but I want to be understood and understand. Even if it comes out crooked.

Have a good weekend and happy learning

Maxie 

Hi Sharon, 

Good on you for pressing ahead regardless. I think it marks a stage. So many of us want to achieve “native” levels and get stuck when we're years away from it. In the meantime, as you experienced during your trip to Germany, you can get by surprisingly well with what you have, “warts” and all. As our skills improve, we might even find that our “warts” make us more interesting, not less.

Austrian immigration authorities are notoriously backed up and take forever to respond. Plus, their quota limits for certain categories are very tight, and demand for quota places is so high that it's more a lottery than a working system. Austria has an equivalent to Portugal's D-7 visa, but it's placed behind a strict quota wall. Portugal has (for now, at least) no limit on the number of D-7 applicants that it will accept. That could change.  But for now, it offers a certainty that the Austrian system doesn't.