Word order lesson 19.1

The following two sentences seem to be very similar:

Die Häuser sind hier alle so prachtvoll verziert.

The houses here are all so beautifully decorated.

and

Jedes Gebäude hier hat so viel Geschichte.

Each building here has so much history.

In the first sentence sind comes imediatly after Die Häuser. (second position)

In the second hat comes after Jedes Gebäude hier. (not second position?)

Are both OK? Both seem to be main clause statements. Does Jedes Gebäude hier count as a single item?

Guten Morgen sfpugh

I am looking forward to a reply from the experts. I really battle with German sentence structure. Just so flexible a lot of the time. I am sure if I ever get to Germany again I am just going to mangle it all horribly. Looking at the sentences I think your assumption is probably correct, but who knows. 

I grew up doing elementary school Afrikaans, so missed a lot of English grammar rules. Even though English was our home language. At home you never learn that anyway, just happens anyway. Afrikkans grammar is so easy and simple too. My one daughter is doing a masters in creative writing and we always refer to her as the grammar guru. Whenever anyone needs something proof read, they ask her to

Have a great day. Here on Vancouver island it is frosty, but the sun is shining. We basically live in a rain forest, so seeing the sun in winter is a real treat.

Sebongela (Sharon)

Hi Sharon

I never learnt any English grammar either, so I just go with what sounds right as a native speaker.

I have been through the Play It section of this lesson several times before, but never thought to question why I was getting the word order wrong in these sentences.

I think the question of what counts as the first item of a sentence is quite complicated but the two sentences in question look very similar to me. What is it about Jedes Gebäude hier that makes it count as a first item rather than just Jedes Gebäude. 

It's all quite confusing but I expect that if you get it wrong, the worst that can happen is that you sound a bit weird and foreign.

I have cousins in Vancouver Island, but I have never been there.

Simon

Hi Simon

I just take it that it is correct even if it does sound odd and contraindicative. One thing that interested me was telling the time in German in level1. Was finding it so difficult to put into perspective and then realized that in Afrikaans time is told in the exact same way. Then all made so much sense. Afrikkans helps as the sounds and pronunciation make it much easier. I find it it so much easier than my Italian from that point of view. But then my portuguese helps there, as there are several similarities. The danger in both cases is then that I want to put in Afrikaans or Portuguese words. 

In Afrikaans “WIE ” is who and that has been a real stumbling block. 

Vancouver Island is lovely. We live in a town called Courtenay mid island on the East Coast. So at times one forgets that we live on the ocean, as it looks as calm as a lake. West Coast on the Pacific Ocean and open sea big waves and a surfing destination. Where do you live? 

Sebongela

I was in South Africa for a couple of months a long time ago while there was still apartheid. It felt very strange after passing through a number of other African countries. I never learnt much Afrikaans though and we often ended up where we weren’t supposed to be. But I guess your Afrinkaans must help quite a bit with German via Dutch.

On German, I always found WER strange as it sounds so much like “where” rather than “who”.

Hi Simon 

Afrikaans does help. I grew up in the apartheid era. My saving grace was that we spent a lot of time in Mozambique, lived there, hence Portuguese. Lived on the border of the Kruger park 45minutes from the Swaziland and Mozambique borders. A a young child you don't question things, but as I grew older became aware of it all. Just a horrible time. Although there is no apartheid there now, sadly it still is a racist society. Obviously not all, but it is still there. 

I have gone back there regularly, but no family there now. My husband's family mostly in Portugal now, so we will probably visit there now. 

Have been working hard to get my red badge, nearly there and then may slow down a bit. Need a break. Also my Italian is falling behind

Sebongela

Hallo Simon und Sebongela!

Yes, German sentence structure is so flexible which has its advantages as well as disadvantages. Both placements of hier are okay and you can switch them around as you wish. When adverbs are placed in the middle of the sentence, there are a few ‘ground rules’, often depending on other cases, pronouns and prepositions in the sentence. However, thanks to the wonderful German language and its flexibility, there are even more possible ways to use/place them in a sentence, especially if you want to emphasise something. For example, “Die Häuser hier… ” puts more emphasis on “die Häuser” than “Die Häuser sind hier…” which makes the sentence sound a bit more like a general statement.

Hope this helps!

Julia

Hi Julia

Thank you for explaining that it is just emphasis, but my question was really about what can count as the first position.

How about:

Hier sind die Häuser  alle so prachtvoll verziert.

and

Hier die  Häuser  sind alle so prachtvoll verziert.

Hi Sebongela

I guess children accept what ever situation they find themselves in as the don't know anything else.

We never went to Mosambique as it was a troubled time and we were advised that it wasn't safe, as we were diriving and camping by the roadside.

Good luck with your Italien, I don't think I could learn two languages at the same time now.

Hi Simon

I am interested to know where you went in Africa and South Africa, that is if you have any interest in sharing. Pity you missed out on Mozambique, the beaches further north are amazing and it had and still has such a different feeling to South Africa. Then and still now. Yes, I think as children we do accept the norm, but I think as we get older we need to question a regime. Some people just don't and I think that was so wrong. Add @yahoo.com to sebongela if you want to know more.

Sebongela

Hallo Simon,

My apologies for misreading your question! The rule that the verb always takes the second position still applies so “Jedes Gebäude hier” can be counted as a single unit of meaning in a way. 

If you want to place “hier” at the beginning of a sentence, the verb switches places with the subject so it can stay in second position which means “Hier sind die Häuser alle so prachtvoll verziert.” is correct but “Hier die Häuser sind alle so prachtvoll verziert.” would not work. 

Viele Grüße,

Julia

Thank you Julia, this is the heart of the issue, how do you know that “Jedes Gebäude hier” is a single unit of meaning. 

“Hier die Häuse sind” doesn't work, but how about “Die Häuse hier sind”?

In English “ The houses here are …” and "Here the Houses are…" are a bit different and I would put put a comma after “Here” in the second phrase. (I have no English gramma training so I don't know if this is actually correct)

Hallo Simon, 

When an adverb is placed in the middle of a sentence, there are a few different possibilities where it can go but we also know that the verb always takes the second position which means whatever comes before the verb must be one element. The second position means the verb is the second element of the sentence so it is not necessarily the second word. English has a lot stricter word order rules compared to German. 

A more extreme example would be (and remember verb-comes-second rule applies to main clauses) :

“Nachdem er von der Klippe gesprungen war, hat er sich ein Bein gebrochen.” - “After he jumped off the cliff, he broke a leg.” (This is a sentence from lesson 9.10 switched around)

As the sentence begins with the subordinate clause “Nachdem er von der Klippe gesprungen war” , it is immediately followed by the verb of the independent clause “hat”. In this case the subordinate clause is the first element and the verb “hat” the second element/in second position. 

"Die Häuse hier sind.." works fine but if you want to place adverbs such as “hier” at the beginning of a sentence, word order is not that flexible and the verb and noun need to switch places so the verb can stay in second position. 

Hope this helps!

Julia

So would I be right in thinking that this is a “word order with adverbs” issue. The adverb should be close to the verb so “Die Gebäude hier sind” is OK, but “Hier die Gebäude sind” isn't because the adverb has got sepatated from the verb?

Hi Simon,

Yes, there are special rules or guidelines when it comes to placing adverbs in sentences which are different depending on whether you start the sentence with the adverb or not.

If there is no object in the sentence, the adverb is usually placed after the conjugated verb, for example “Die Häuser sind hier schön.” - “The houses are nice here.” (placement of “hier” before the verb is possibe, e.g. for emphasis as explained above).

When you're dealing with accusative and dative objects , the adverb is usually placed before the accusative object (can be placed after for emphasis) and after the dative object, for example:

“Der Makler zeigte Thomas hier die Häuser.” - “The agent showed Thomas the houses here.”

However, if the accusative and dative object are pronouns, then the adverb comes after them, for example

“Der Makler zeigte sie ihm hier.” - “The agent showed them to him here.”

There are more rules, e.g. regarding prepositions, reflexive verbs and pronouns but I just wanted to show you this so you can see that the adverb is not always close to the verb. 

Does this answer your question?

Viele Grüße,

Julia

Thank you Julia, that's given me something to think about.