Vosotros

Steven-W15

Steven-W15

"Os ruego que me perdonéis, lord Eddard. No habéis venido a escuchar recuerdos siniles de un verano olvidado antes de que naciera vuestro padre." - Juego de Tronos, p. 246 My understanding was that the "vosotros" form was used to address more than one person in the familar ("tu"). Here the context is clearly one person being addressed - much like "usted". What am I missing?
Robert-C7

Robert-C7

I think vosotros is used only in Spain and is similar to the Southern US y'all. Whereas ustedes means you (plural, formal), vosotros means you (plural, informal). vosotros is the plural form of tu. I think the second sentence starts with "Y'all have not come to hear..."
Dan-H24

Dan-H24

I am a recent transplant to the southern US. The Spanish teachers down here never tire of using the charming (to a Yankee) contraction "y'all" to explain the use of the vosotros form. Which, in my limited experience, does indicate familiar/plural as stated by Steven and Robert. Hopefully Cristian will shed further light on this subject.
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

Thanks, guys. We share the same understanding of how the vosotros form should be used. What I don't understand though is how this applies to the example cited above (one of countless many in the book): "Os ruego que me perdonéis, lord Eddard." Lord Eddard is an individual and yet is being addressed as "y'all"?
Ava Dawn

Ava Dawn

Not understanding the context of the usage of the verb is sometimes difficult. All I know is that this is a Spanish (from Spain) author and not one of the Latin American author. When I was learning Spanish a long, long time ago, vosotros was used a lot more. You get a feel for it. Now I don't see many examples of vosotros in long sentences in RS. I have not tried reading serious books in Spanish yet. Maybe next year, Maybe read Don Quixote in Spanish.
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

Awhile back I found reading Don Quixote to be quite difficult (both the vocabulary and the verb tenses) and well beyond my level of appreciation. I have had more success reading books I like translated into Spanish (interesting subject and generally easier to read), though I am very much looking forward to giving Don Quixote another try after finishing "Juego de Tronos".
Cristian-Montes-de-Oca

Cristian-Montes-de-Oca

Hola amigos, For my american friends, Feliz 4 de julio, Día de la independencia de los Estados Unidos de America!,(a little late, I know haha). Well, you already have mentioned that "vosotros" (and "sois" and "os", "habéis", "perdonéis") are almost exclusively used in Spain, whereas "ustedes", "son", "les" and "han" can be found more commonly in Latinamerican Spanish (of course most of us understand the meaning of those words, since we sometimes use it in school (literature and philosphy). And yes! Don Quijote is quite difficult even for us native speakers, first, because it uses an old version of castillian or spanish (from spain) and even if it has been modified to fit the 'new' spain-spanish, they still use for example, vosotros. Also , it is not difficult to find a "latinamerican spanish" version of Don Quijote, (want to know the complete name of this book by Miguel de Saavedra a.k.a the Spanish Shakeaspeare?): "El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de La Mancha" "The Ingenious Gentleman Don Quixote of La Mancha" . "En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no hace mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco y galgo corredor." ("In a village of La Mancha, whose name I do not wish to recall, there lived, not very long ago, one of those gentlemen with a lance in the lance-rack, an ancient shield, a skinny old horse, and a fast greyhound.")... Anyway, back to main subject, If i wanted to "translate" that expression to latin american spanish it would be something like: "Le ruego que me perdone, Lord Eddard. No ha venido a escuchar recuerdos seniles de un verano olvidado antes de que naciera su padre" And , yes, it is a formal form, otherwise the sentence would be: "Te ruego que me perdones, Eddard. No has venido a escuchar recuerdos seniles de un verano olvidado antes de que naciera tu padre" Notice the little differences? So, we have 3 phrases, that say the exact same thing, but written in a different way. I hope this helps! Saludos desde Baja California, México. P.S Excuse my english, any corrections will be appreciated.
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

Thanks, Cristian. Your English is perfect. I do find it curious that "Game of Thrones" was translated into castillian as opposed to Latinamerican Spanish (the book as well as the television series). Is this considered more "literary"? Castillian (for translated literature). As best as I can tell, the "tu" form is used when the context is obviously "tu" (father to son, etc.). The "vosotros" form is used everywhere else. I don't remember seeing "usted" or "ustedes" anywhere in "Juego de Tronos". Latinamerican Spanish (for translated literature). It seems that the "tu" form is used in addressing one person (whatever the relationship) and "ustedes" otherwise. [This is actually what I would expect.] Please correct me if I've missed something! Saludos desde Casablanca, Marruecos
Cristian-Montes-de-Oca

Cristian-Montes-de-Oca

Hola amigos! Exacto, Steven. It sounds more "literary". I think , you see it in some american movies, all of the suden people have british accent and use fancy words, even if the story or movie is not taking place in the UK. I think we have "Game of Thrones" with spanish (latinamerican) subtitles over here, but I've never watched it completly dubbed in spanish. If they ever do so, I am 100% sure it would be in latinamerican spanish, since we preffer to watch our movies either in the original english language or dubbed in latinamerican spanish (and not from spain!!!). And everything you have said is correct. But, you do have to remember that "vosotros" es plural, so it cannot be compared to "tu". It is funny since we have "tu" informal and "usted" as formal, but when speaking of plural, we only have "ustedes", and "vosotros". But there is NO "tu" in plural ("tues"?? jaja). And there is a singular form of "vosotros" that is used mainly in Argentina and Uruguay (and some parts of central america such as Guatemala) and that is "vos"...but when they use "vos" i can notice the verb also changes, and this just mixes everything for someone who is starting to learn spanish. An example? You can go to the football/soccer match/game. Tu puedes ir al partido de futbol. Vos podés ir al partido fútbol. Usted puede ir al partido futbol. That is the reason why you can mainly find dubbed movies in spanish mainly in 3 versions : Mexican, Argentinian and Spanish. But you can also find it in Colombian or Chilean versions. You can read a little bit more here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubbing_(filmmaking)#Spanish-speaking_countries For example, most of latinamericans watch "The Simpons" (in spanish), dubbed in "Mexican spanish" version, , with some dashes of "neutral" spanish, whereas in Spain you get the Spanish version. Same happens with most Disney, Pixar and Dreamcast movies. An example is Shrek. For standar spanish you can read some info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish I am not 100% sure if this happens with books, but It might have slight differences, Buen dia, y feliz viernes. Saludos desde Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico!
Steven-W15

Steven-W15

Hola Cristian! As always, many thanks for taking the time to share your expertise with these detailed responses - this really is a terrific help to all of us trying to learn Spanish.
Cristian-Montes-de-Oca

Cristian-Montes-de-Oca

Hola, De nada amigos, es un verdadero placer poder ayudarlos! Saludos!

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